War on Terror History

By Noah Graff

Delta Force Tryouts, day after physical selection. Haney in middle of first row.

While the U.S. government has been interrogating the CIA this week for the organization’s own controversial interrogation practices on suspected terrorists, I reflect on how our country’s perspective on terrorism has morphed over the last 13 years since September 11, 2001. The “War on Terror” is a term that many Americans have grown numb to as we encounter it on such a regular basis, whether it be in the real news or watching our favorite primetime shows. But of course, the United States has been officially at war with terrorism for decades, and the evolution of this war has been complicated and fascinating.

I just finished listening to Inside Delta Force by Eric Haney. Haney was an original founding member of Delta Force in 1978, the first U.S. Special Forces unit specifically devoted to international terrorism conflicts. Although today Delta Force isn’t a truly secret unit, as it was when it was first formed, it has managed to stay out of the limelight, aside from the 1980s Chuck Norris movies. The Pentagon refuses to comment publicly on Delta Force’s highly secretive activities, and Delta operators almost always wear street clothes, and have civilian hairstyles and facial hair to remain undercover.

I am wowed by the sophistication of Delta Force verses the traditional military forces that preceded it. In 1977, Colonel Charles Beckwith created Delta Force because he saw a need for an elite Special Forces unit that specialized in fighting international terrorism. He sought to create a unit resembling the British Special Air Service (SAS), in which he had served as an exchange officer in 1962. There had never been a U.S. Special Force like it up until then, but Beckwith convinced the U.S. army of his correct prediction, that terrorism would be huge threat around the world in the not so distant future.

In the first tryouts for Delta Force, only Eric Haney and 11 other men were accepted out of 163 other elite soldiers invited to Fort Bragg from around the world. That 7% acceptance rate was the highest ever for Delta Force tryouts.

The tryout process put the soldiers through the wringer both physically and psychologically. It finally culminated in a 40 mile solo course, which took the soldiers off main paths and roads with minuscule navigation assistance. No soldier was allowed to help a comrade in any of the tryout challenges. The Army has almost always relied upon structured orders and working in teams, but the Delta tryouts are designed to test soldiers’ abilities to work autonomously, without plans set up ahead of time by superior officers. One of the unique characteristics of Delta Force versus other military forces is that the small teams of operators participating in a mission are the ones who plan the mission. This enables Delta Force operators to plan missions in which they believe they can succeed. According to Haney, the Delta Force operator is still the only fighter who can be sent out alone or in small teams in extremely difficult conditions with limited or no guidance. (This version of the book was published in 2005)

In training the Delta Force operators, Colonel Beckwith’s philosophy also broke with Army tradition by utilizing experts from resources outside the Army. For instance, it used CIA field agents to instruct on trade craft (espionage) in hostile territories, the Secret Service for its expertise on sniping, and even consulted incarcerated expert thieves to teach soldiers such techniques as lock-picking and hot-wiring cars.

One of the specialties of Delta Force is hijacked airplane rescues, so its operators consult commercial airlines to study every model of aircraft available. Interestingly, Haney recounted that Delta Airlines was always the most cooperative and helpful airline during his time in Delta Force.

In the book, Haney describes some of his successful missions and disastrous ones, such as the attempted Iran hostage rescue. When Delta Force is not tasked with rescues or espionage, its operators are often used to protect American embassies in the most dangerous locations or to train foreign armies when it suits American interests. Haney did much of his service in the 1980s in hot zones such as Beirut and Latin American countries. In the book, he sometimes questions the motives of some of his missions in Latin America, where Delta’s purpose was to aid despotic regimes to squelch revolutionary guerrillas.

Politics and wars will always be messy. Despite our powerful media, U.S. citizens still don’t know what’s really going on behind the scenes — for better or worse. But at least we can feel confident that we have some of the most talented trained people defending us.

Questions:

Does torture bother you?

Are we winning the War on Terror?

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48 thoughts on “War on Terror History

  1. Robert

    It depends what your definition of torture is. I do not consider water boarding torture. Yes is scares the hell out of the detainee and mimics drowning, however it is not painful, lasts as long as you can hold your breath and there is no residual neurological or physical impairment. You could make an argument for PTSD, but so what. Given the choice, Mulslim terrorists would choose waterboarding over annihilation with a Hellfire missile and at the very least they know they will be sent to Gitmo for a well fed vacation for a few years followed by release back to their buddies care of Obama.

     
    +4
    1. Josh

      Waterboarding? You think that’s what this is about?

      “Detainees were forced to stand on broken limbs for hours, kept in complete darkness, deprived of sleep for up to 180 hours, sometimes standing, sometimes with their arms shackled above their heads.

      Prisoners were subjected to “rectal feeding” without medical necessity. Rectal exams were conducted with “excessive force”. The report highlights one prisoner later diagnosed with anal fissures, chronic hemorrhoids and “symptomatic rectal prolapse”.

      The report mentions mock executions, Russian roulette. US agents threatened to slit the throat of a detainee’s mother, sexually abuse another and threatened prisoners’ children. One prisoner died of hypothermia brought on in part by being forced to sit on a bare concrete floor without pants.”

      What the US did was far worse than just waterboarding. That’s just small excerpt.

      Ignoring the even more heinous actions of our government, you don’t consider water boarding torture? Are you out of your mind? In what twisted mindset does something have to cause permanent damage or physical harm to be torture? You say given the choice muslim terrorists would choose waterboarding over anhilation. The problem is that a great number of the people the US tortured WEREN’T TERRORISTS. And we went FAR further than waterboarding.

      We are supposed to be a moral beacon for the world. It’s part of the American cultural identity. That’s what I was raised to believe at least, I don’t know about you. I was told we’re better than the terrorists.

      When we torture, we become no better and I’m not about to get into a debate about how their torture is so much worse than our torture. What a load of arrogant poppycock that is. Torture is torture, plain and simple and anal rape is unjustifiable. The US does not condone torture, regardless of if you want to re-brand it as “enhanced interrogation.” Talk about some Orwellian doublespeak.

      We release people from GITMO because they ARENT TERRORISTS. Moreso, when the US tortures prisoners it opens our own captured up to torture. Maybe Islamic extremists would have tortured our troops anyway, but that’s irrelevant. What if we go to war with Russia? Or China? What then? We can now claim no innocence or benevolence. We cannot decry them for using these practices on our own soldiers, because we have used them on others. Being okay with waterboarding Islamic extremists is the same thing as being okay with waterboarding American soldiers. Being okay with these torturous acts, many of which are abhorrent and worse than waterboarding, is being okay with that being done to Americans. Are you okay with our enemies making captured soldiers stand on broken limbs for hours?

      I’m not, and you bloody well shouldn’t be.

      I don’t know what kinda of twisted logic our vile divisive media culture has drilled into your brain, but you are 100% wrong plain and simple. Waterboarding is torture. Waterboarding is just the tip of the iceberg.

      I don’t care what party you are in. I don’t care how you feel about Bush or Obama. I don’t care if you support the war or not. I don’t care. This isn’t a dang political issue. It’s an issue about who we are as a nation. It’s an issue about a security apparatus run amok.

      When I read statements like yours I become physically ill. There is no justification for such callous and willful ignorance of the truth. There is no excuse to be a torture defending apologist. None.

      I’d like to see how you feel about waterboarding after it’s done to you. Hannity said he’d do it and never stepped up. How bout you? Put your money where your mouth is.

       
      +12
      1. MM

        I agree Josh. We can’t be the world’s leader if we can’t even adhere to the rules we set forth upon the rest of the world.

        It’s sickening to think some individuals use the logic of…. “well they do it, so we can do it.”
        That’s not how you lead by example. That’s not how you retain your status as a respected world power.

         
        +2
      2. Chris

        Hey Josh,
        Lose anybody on September 11th? If you had you might think differently.

        None of the people we “tortured” were complete innocents, unlike the people who burned to death, or worse, in the World Trade Center.
        Do you really think if we “play nice” with the prisoners in our custody, no one will be beheaded by these zealots?
        You probably feel that we were wrong to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

         
        +5
      3. Josh

        No. I didn’t lose anyone on 9/11. Perhaps that’s why I’m able to think rationally about the subject than those who may have.

        How do you know that none of the people who yes, were absolutely tortured, did you read what the F I wrote? How have you concluded that the non-terrorist, civilian detainees who had not committed crimes against the US are not “completely innocent.” That’s effing made up. That’s made up by you, right here, right now. Nonsense. There is plenty of evidence that ordinary civilians were rounded up en masse who committed no crimes.

        As for the nuclear attacks in WWII I won’t speak to judge them. It is impossible to accurately judge the actions of those in the past who lived in a different time, and a different culture with different social mores using the cultural systems and social mores of our current society. That’s history 101.

        If you’re going to respond you well better take the time to at least read what the hell you’re responding to. I didn’t say that islamic extremists would stop doing heinous things if we stop torturing. It was one of the key points I made. That’s not what it’s about, that’s not the point. It’s about our status as a nation and what we stand for.

        So torture makes you feel good? Torture makes you feel like justice was done? Well that doesn’t effing matter. It’s still wrong. There are a great many things that make us feel better or feel good, that are wrong. Your argument is terrible.

         
        +2
      4. Robert

        If I cut off the head of an American aid worker or killed a Marine I would deserve it. In this world it is Us or Them.

         
        +2
  2. Dave

    What is torture? We have a bunch of barbarians decapitating our citizens, blowing up innocent people and keeping their own people in the 12th century. Muslims deserve nothing but our scorn, so whatever it takes to drive them back into their caves is perfectly OK.

     
    +3
    1. Josh

      We are supposed to be a moral beacon for the world. It’s part of the American cultural identity. That’s what I was raised to believe at least, I don’t know about you. I was told we’re better than the terrorists.

      When we torture, we become no better and I’m not about to get into a debate about how their torture is so much worse than our torture. What a load of arrogant poppycock that is. Torture is torture, plain and simple and anal rape is unjustifiable. The US does not condone torture, regardless of if you want to re-brand it as “enhanced interrogation.” Talk about some Orwellian doublespeak.

      Maybe Islamic extremists would have tortured our troops anyway, but that’s irrelevant. What if we go to war with Russia? Or China? What then? We can now claim no innocence or benevolence. We cannot decry them for using these practices on our own soldiers, because we have used them on others. Being okay with waterboarding Islamic extremists is the same thing as being okay with waterboarding American soldiers. Being okay with these torturous acts, many of which are abhorrent and worse than waterboarding, is being okay with that being done to Americans. Are you okay with our enemies making captured soldiers stand on broken limbs for hours?

      I’m not, and you bloody well shouldn’t be.

       
      +4
  3. MM

    I really try not to dive into the realm of politics, but the problem with the “war on terror” is the scope of how you define terrorism. In a sense, people in America protesting the central government about rights being violated or removed could be labeled as domestic terrorists. And….quite frankly the people today are being treated like terrorists met with 30 ton mine resistant vehicles, and a police force armed to take over a small country.

    The question I have is…where do we draw the line between terrorist and freedom fighter? Who’s ideals do we adhere to in order to finalize our perspective on the matter? Every day frustrated american citizens, or a government with a lack of transparency?

     
    +2
    1. Josh

      Spot on. The terror laws introduced after 9/11 are already being abused against their original intent. These laws were never meant to be used against Americans, they were never meant to be used against animal rights activists who film farms undercover and are then branded eco-terrorists. Eric Frein, while an awful cop killing criminal, is not a terrorist and yet he’s being charged with several terrorism crimes. That’s not what the patriot act was for and we all bloody know it. It’s legislative creep. Cops are not soldiers. Citizens are not enemies of the state. This is not Republican vs Democrat. It’s Americans vs Plutocratic Oligarchy we currently live under.

       
      +1
      1. Josh

        Sometimes I just can’t bite my tongue, like when my fellow citizens forget everything this country stands for in lieu of vindictiveness and nationalist zealotry.

         
        +1
  4. Jack

    I have not read the report. Will say it is hard to believe much of anything coming out of Washington these days. How accurate is the report, who knows. Could very well be some politicians trying to make other politicians or our country look bad. Remember the apology tour.

     
    +4
    1. Josh

      It has absolutely been politicized, which is disgusting because an issue this important shouldn’t be used for political grandstanding. This is about who we are as a nation and what we stand for, not about winning elections. I’ve had it with both parties and their politics above all attitudes. The gross part about this is they’ve made it partisan and so to go along with your team we now have people advocating effing torture. NO. NO NO NO. It doesn’t matter if you’re a Republican, Democrat or red blooded Communist. Americans should not condone torture! As for apologies, have you ever stopped to think that maybe the US has done questionable things that we shouldn’t be proud of? We’ve done amazing things! We’re a great country! But like any other we have our faults.

       
  5. Jerry Johnson

    Noah: “Crazy” Charlie Beckwith was one of the Officers that ran the Ranger School when I was at Ft. Benning. He deserves his nickname.

    Delta was formed and operational in Vietnam.

    Here’s your “Moral Beacon” to the world. If you attack our Country, kill (or intend to kill) our people here and in other parts of the world, you only deserve one thing – to die. And it should be a slow and painful death. An eye for and eye.

    Josh – In today’s world, you only maintain your status as a World Power if other nations fear you and your military might. When the USA was in that position, it promoted stability in the world. Look at where we are now vs. where we have been in the past. How are you going to handle Iran getting a Nuke?? Oh, I forgot. Kerry is working on that !!!

     
    +2
    1. MM

      Jerry, your reasoning is flawed. Trillions of dollars have spent on a failed “war on terror” catching Saddam, allegedly killing Osama, etc. We are still feared by every nation, yet look how unstable the world is, let alone our own soil.

      We can send 3 billion dollars a year to Israel, spend over 1 trillion on a FAILED F-35 air craft project, but we can’t take care of our sick, our dying, our poor, our old.

      Other countries fear us, but they laugh at our ignorance and hypocrisies.

       
      1. Jack

        We’ve spent trillions on the war on poverty.
        Obamacare will take care of the old, one way or the other.

         
        +1
    2. Noah Graff

      Thanks for commenting Jerry. Pretty sure your facts are wrong about Delta Force’s history. I just read the book about it, and if you check the web it will say the same, that is was formed in 77 and 78.

      That’s really interesting that you were around Beckwith.

       
    3. Josh

      In today’s world? You’re mentioning a constant truth, military power has always been a giant factor in the power of a nation. Look at the power granted the tiny island of Britain by it’s impressive navy. Duh.

      The thing is, things change, and in today’s world military might is less important than how one uses that might. The US has conquered the world moreso with cultural dominance than by military might in the last 75 years.

      Moving on. Why shouldn’t Iran have a nuke? Why is our sovereignty more sovereign than their sovereignty? They’re a nation with borders and a government and an army. We have no place in dictating what they do with their resources so long as they aren’t hurting others. Iran is our enemy because we’ve made them our enemy. Our citizens and their citizens have more in common than we have differences, it’s our governments who despise each other and with good reason. We would do much better if we could come to a diplomatic solution and have an ally in Iran rather than an enemy, but then we’d have to stop messing around in foreign affairs which is so popular with hawks like you.

       
      +1
      1. Jack

        Why shouldn’t Iran have a nuke?????????????????? What????????????????
        They want a nuke to hurt others including us.
        Maybe you should go to Iran and make nice.

         
        +4
      2. Josh

        Jack, lets look at it a bit more academically. What right does the US have to tell another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do? Without a declaration of war or threat of military force the answer is none.

        Jack, what makes you so sure that Iran wants to hurt us? The propaganda fed to you by right wing media? Iranian citizens are largely like you and I. They attempted a revolution a few years ago but were quashed by an authoritarian government. It is our governments that are enemies. That said, their sovereign government has a right to develop technology as they see fit without interference. North Korea has nukes and we’re still here.

         
        +1
      3. ????

        I agree with Iran having a nuke. Good idea! Then when they use it on Israel and Israel destroy half the middle east we won’t have to worry about offending your high moral standards. Sorry but you can speak out because someone else is giving their life so you can object to everything that is happening in the world. When things change the way you want then you can explain it to them while you are being beheaded with a dull machete and get to live for at least five minutes while it is happening. Glad you are ok with that but I think I will skip that one.

         
    1. Josh

      Jerry, PS, refute any one of my statements with fact and reasoning rather than baseless ad hominem attacks. You’re the one asserting that it’s cool to anally torture prisoners of war and have them stand on broken limbs and I’m the one with issues? Lol, okay bud.

       
      +1
  6. Orlando

    I find it interesting that those that have risk nothing are so devoted to their passion of judging that which protects them from harm. In the first place, there is no morality in war.
    War itself is an act perpetrated on humans by inhumanity in the name of selfishness, greed, the need to dominate and to destroy. The very statements “moral war”, “fair fight”, “limited interrogation to learn the oppositions plans to destroy you and yours”, are all flights of fantasy by fools who deny the reality of war. If they or their children were threatened with annihilation, they would take whatever steps were necessary to protect them. Those that judge the means required to protect others as anything but necessary are either fools, cowards, or unscrupulous politicians serving their own wants and desires.

     
    +1
    1. Josh

      There is actually morality in war. Have you studied the western theatre of WWII at all? There was plenty of morality. Do you not realize we voluntarily agreed not to use chemcial weapons after WWI? Have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention? We have all agreed as civilized nations to apply morality to war. That is EXACTLY what sets us apart from savages and terrorists. We have unilaterally agreed as a nation that torture is unacceptable. It’s been a tenet of our culture since at least WWII. It’s a part of our national ethos.

      Furthermore, in a war you fight against an enemy nation. It is declared by congress and can have an eventual resolution. The “war on terror” is not a war, regardless of weather it is labeled one. There is no clear enemy, just a concept. You can’t go to war with a concept, because that will never end. You can’t have a war against all bad people that exist. That’s an un-winnable conflict. The US will always have enemies. It’s impossible to declare war against the entire world. It’s impossible to eliminated everyone who doesn’t agree with us. And you certainly don’t sell your national ethos down the river to fight an un-winnable conflict. And that’s a big part of why Bin Laden was more successful than he could ever have imagined. We sold ourselves out.

      You may even have a point, if a huge number of the people who were tortured weren’t innocent civilians, but they were and you don’t.

      Of course war isn’t fair, life isn’t fair. What sets us apart from savages and terrorists is how WE behave. What WE believe is fair and what WE believe is acceptable. Well I’ll tell you what, it is NOT acceptable to torture. It’s not even effective. We’re better than that. We’re better than terrorists. We’re better than people that behead prisoners. We’re better than people who mistreat women. We’re better than those who wantonly attack civilian targets.

      Or at least we’re supposed to be. And I’m not ready to give that up. Are you? Do you want to be the Russia or China of the world? Dictatorships rule through fear, violence and torture. Not democratic republics.

       
      1. Chris

        You must be joking. Morality in the western theater in WW2? Which part? The bombing of civilian targets? The invention and use of napalm by the United States? How about fire bombing a non-military city (Dresden) just to prove a theory?

        To paraphase a concept – If one of your loved ones was kidnapped and you captured one of the kidnappers, what would do? Ask him nicely where your loved one was? Befriend him and hope he comes around to your way of thinking? I doubt it.

        It is easy to take the moral high ground when you have no skin in the game.

         
        +1
  7. Jerry Johnson

    M&M;

    Think it thru. The trillions spent on the “War on Terror” was training, and testing new military technologies. You need an arena to do that in, so every year or so, we’ll find one.

    Our military has been gutted by this administration. That’s what the world is laughing at – Obama’s stupidity.

    Obamacare’s death panels will take care of old, sick folks.

    The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and the Raptor are not failed projects. They are a very necessary upgrade to our aging and technologically antiquated fleet. They are just way over budget, and delivery commitments have been a joke – like everything else the government get’s involved with.

    That about covers it.

     
    1. MM

      I’d rather not get started on “Obamacare”. Making families fork up money that doesn’t exist to buy healthcare they still can’t afford doesn’t make sense in the grand scheme of things. Politicians live in an alternate reality than their constituents (if you can even still call the people that).

       
    2. Josh

      I’m not sure what your first point is. While I agree that when you pump trillions and trillions of dollars into your military apparatus that the beast is going to try and find food, are you saying its’ a good thing? If you’re saying it’s a bad thing, that sounds contradictory to every other thing you’ve said.

      Our military has not been gutted. We still have the largest military in the world. We still spend more on military budgets than the next several largest armed nations. The world is not laughing at us because we lack military might. This is a myth perpetrated by hawks and neocons.

      Most of the rest of the world actually respected Obama for a very long time, most of them love Obama and were laughing for years at Bush’s perceived stupidity(Bush is actually a very smart man). I’m not trying to get into a R v D slingfest because I actually don’t care. I don’t think Republicans or Democrats have anything good to say.

      If anything the rest of the world lost respect for Obama for being TOO militaristic. He has escalated nearly every Bush policy regarding the wars. He didn’t actually want to leave Iraq, they forced us out because they were going to start prosecuting our troops for crimes and we don’t allow that.

      Death panels? Jesus Christ man, go read a damn book or something. You’re just betraying your ignorance now. Death panels. Good lord man. Put the glass of koolaid down.

      I love how you’re against government spending, oh man oh they spend so much money omg omg, and yet you have absolutely no problem when it’s massive, MASSIVE military spending. Of course, because the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing so much for our nation. Oh wait no, they’re a massive money sink and managed to balloon the national debt for the past decade. Let’s not forget Obama inherited a 10 trillion dollar debt, created largely by unnecessary tax cuts and ridonkulous military spending on unnecessary nation building wars.

       
      +1
      1. Jack

        The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a fifteen-member United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

         
        +1
      2. ????

        The debt is for the Iraq issue and Afghanistan issue ? The is the most expensive thing the military has done ever ? REALLY? You did not look like anything more than a liberal till you made that comment. Math was not your strong suit in school I would suspect. Shouting loud and ignorant statements is more likely. Good thing ignorance can be fixed by you going back to school and learning something. 🙂

         
  8. David

    [Hey Josh… appreciate your side of morality and integrity! These things are a product of knowing God and I believe THIS is what DID make our country great (Not our military might.) Throwing our military might around is causing a rapid decline! (Yes.. just like Rome) No one’s even coming close to you in this debate. : ) It frightens me to see how much of our “good soldier” thinking in this country is the product of long-term/slow/consistent warmongering propaganda. (Germany 1930’s) Josh .. you are not alone here… we just currently live in a world where the sick and twisted “get the press” (because they definitely own it ) and .. over time.. it becomes “truth” .. very sad… but Thanks for your passion … please don’t lose it !!! (The Real battle is for our hearts.. and our minds)

    I see a lot of good points.. but I think this discussion needs to get past all the Torture talk and get to the “Real Issue”. I’m assuming that most of the people viewing this site are educated people, yet I’ve only seen a slight mention of Root Cause Analysis… in other words… Why would we even be talking about Torture in the first place.??? This brings me to the question .. Why are we PERPETUALLY AT WAR??? And the next question that follows that is … “Which came first …the Tyrant… or the Terrorist???”
    Currently, I believe we have a military presence in around .. oh.. 130 COUNTRIES ; )
    (Sounds a bit like Romans in the Bible doesn’t it? .. and the countries around the Mediterranean being occupied by them probably DIDN’T LIKE IT EITHER .. YA THINK?)
    The next question that SCREAMS at me is … “Ever had your NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY STOLEN from you?”
    Getting back to the Tyrant or the Terrorist thing… WHAT IS LEFT for other countries that are smaller than.. oh… our “empire”… and we perform covert operations and coup d etats lets say like IRAN 1953 to control their OWN NATURAL RESOURCES. (this between Brits and US). [and … this is only one of a multitude of Offenses]… TERRORISM from the Middle East???…. Oooooh MY! Sorry folks … it’s what our foreign policy grooms them to be .. Terrorists… because it’s profitable. The business of the “War on Terror” is our Grossest National Product…
    (Ever wondered why our businesses seem to ship more and more jobs out… the only thing left is … the military : o)

    Dwight Eisenhower warned us… of the Military / Industrial Complex
    Smedley Butler … Wars are a Racket
    Search : all wars are bankers wars

    Sorry folks.. if you don’t like TORTURE / TERRORISM / PERPETUAL WARS.. you’d better learn what causes it!!! It is QUITE profitable “for a while” I hear… but it ultimately brings nations to ruin. Read some history … crap… the warlords keep re-writing that.. well.. be very selective in your reading of history .. : )

    My concern is that … “What goes around … comes around!” If we don’t START SUPPORTING OUR TROOPS by just bringing them back home and get back to a “healthy” defense of our own borders… we may soon get an opportunity to find out HOW MUCH “PHUN” IT IS to be occupied by someone you typically don’t have in your neighborhood : ) And it won’t be Mr Rogers… you get the point?)

    Instead of directing our attentions in the manufacturing world to making a better War Machine for a few Greedy Power Hungry Warmongering Warlords in this country.. let’s redirect our efforts to making things here … for a peaceful economy .. for US. (and to trade with Other “Sovereign” countries) The choice is ours.. we can do this… or just be a rerun of what the Roman Empire did..

    Let’s throw the Kool-aide down, stop listening to the mainstream presstitues, start respecting other countries’ borders, let them have their Sovereignty back, get out of intervening in other countries affairs to get what a “few” in this country want, and actually take care of our own business! You want World Peace .. short of Jesus coming again?.. (and He will) .. with this, you will have it almost over night! IT’S OUR FOREIGN POLICY!!! Currently .. it’s War CRAP… and it’s the only thing offered on the table … and NOBODY want’s to eat it!

    If we don’t run from this logic that ” I’m a HAMMER.. therefore everything else must be a nail… cause I SAID So” attitude… we’re gonna get Nailed.

    PS… I currently work for the Military / Industrial complex … and I want out! Also, we knew about 9/11 coming.. and groomed it… sorry. I will continue to pray for this broken country.

     
    +1
  9. Erik

    So if torture is OK because “that’s what they’d do to us”, what’s the next thing that’s OK? Genocide? Religious persecution? Oh, wait, I guess those already are on the table in the new America. It amazes me this is an argument at all.

    Why shouldn’t we torture? We are Americans, we are made of every race, color, creed and religion on the planet. We are different. We don’t take the low road. Corny? NO!

    “It’s easy to make those arguments if you don’t have any skin in the game”. We all have skin in the game, whether we lost someone on 9/11 or not. It’s about our very existence and identity. I would rather be an American than any other nationality, and it’s because of the moral ground we USED TO hold.

    Torture is not just morally repugnant, it’s a crap shoot. Usually useless. The victim will say anything to make it stop if you push the right buttons. Check out John McCain’s eloquent, heartfelt speech on this. Does he have a little skin in the game?

    I think this is the fall of our great country. An inept, deceitful, corrupt government. Mismanagement on a wholesale scale. The loss of our moral compass starts with our government. These politicians exist to get re-elected, and are drunk on power. The amorality of the process, the money involved (Citizens United, the biggest power grab in history), has put EVERYTHING on the table. Including torture.

    If we want to protect against terror, we should control our borders. I didn’t say seal them, I said control them. Control what and who goes in, and what and who goes out. We don’t REALLY do that right now.

    Secondarily, we need to get off the Oil Addiction. The dynamic changes if we’re not on our back foot due to Oil Demand. Look at what’s happening now. OPEC is trying to put our domestic Oil Production out of business by flooding the country with Cheap Oil. And our government is not strategically doing anything about it.

    If you ran your businesses the way this country is run, you’d be out of business. Deservedly so. But we just keep digging a hole, and going further into financial and moral debt with this corrupt group of “leaders”.

    This country is being run into the ground by it’s elected government. That we are arguing that Torture is OK is just further evidence that we’re off the rails and looking for a hard spot to crash.

     
    1. Chris

      Of course torture is repugnant – so is murdering innocent Americans.
      If torturing every “detainee” prevents the murder of a single American – I am fine with that.

      The difference between what we do and what “they” do is that if we use EITs (another lovely acronym) it is to get information. John McCain was tortured by a sadistic regime for no other reason than to inflict pain and suffering. He was held for years, what information could he possibly have yielded after so long in captivity?

      My previous question got lost in the shuffle – What would you do if a loved one was kidnapped and you happened to capture one of the kidnappers? How would you get the information of your loved one’s whereabouts? Ask nicely? Establish a rapport over time and hope that the kidnapper comes to understand the error of his ways and willingly gives you the information? I really doubt it. I am sure you would beat the crap out of him to get the info. At least, if I was the kidnapped one, I would hope my family would do the same.

       
      +2
  10. Jack

    “An inept, deceitful, corrupt government.”

    You hit the nail on the head with that sentence.
    No time at the moment to comment on the rest.

     
  11. ????

    America has been protecting Americans since before the country was formed and I for one appreciate not having to worry about my kids or grand kids having to fear beheading. If means that don’t meet the standards of idealistic Americans I am willing to stand by and let them behead their children but watching might be too much for me. I think maybe instead of taking nice vacations anyone that does not think this is a world war take their children on vacation in Detroit or Gary Indiana so they can live in the same situation as the children in the “hood”. I say quit kidding yourselfs about the world. The 1930’s are over and we have a clear and present danger to ALL children worldwide. It that means being nastier than them I vote to protect the children everywhere. Sorry but I did not hear that in ANY comments. BTW I am far from a liberal. 🙂 Hope this great country out lasts me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     

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